Printable View
Trav,
I understand your attitude towards the smoking ban as it violates your beliefs that the goverment should not be able to legislate personal behaviors.
That being said, I think you're a bit off base with your literal interpretation of the proposed wording of the law.
Either way, I was for the smoking ban then and I'm for it now.
The more restrictions and prohibitions in the world,
the poorer people get.
The more experts the country has
the more of a mess it?s in.
The more ingenious the skillful are,
the more monstrous their inventions.
The louder the call for law and order,
the more the thieves and con men multiply
Lao Tzu
Tao Te Ching
500 BC (approximate)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 21, 2007 05:44 AM: Message edited by: travelinman ]</font>
Some more things to think about:
The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)
The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid.
Art Spander
Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
Where you find the laws most numerous, there you will find also the greatest injustice.
Arcesilaus
Law is mind without reason.
Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)
When men are pure, laws are useless; when men are corrupt, laws are broken.
Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881)
A law is something which must have a moral basis, so that there is an inner compelling force for every citizen to obey.
Chaim Weizmann (1874 - 1952)
The strictest law often causes the most serious wrong.
Cicero (106 BC - 43 BC)
The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.
Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
What luck for rulers that men do not think.
Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
Please don't assume that my support of the smoking ban equates to a blanket acceptance of any legislation inhibiting our freedoms.
Most of the quotes you posted I agree with. I fully expect our world to implode with over population and over consumption of natural resources. I plan on laughing my ass off when it does. And if I'm around to see the end, at least I'll be able to view it with clean lungs.
We discussed this issue in detail, my feelings were quite clear I was against the ban. I have no objection smoking bans in places like government buildings and the like. But I always believed that it should be up the restaurant/bar owner to decide whether to allow smoking, and that it should be up to the smokers and non-smokers to decide which business to patronize accordingly.
That said...
It's the law (albeit a vaguely-worded one) and maybe it will be overturned but until and unless that occurs, it is what it is and it does bother me if it is not enforced. Yes I realize Jumper and the rest of the PD have much more important things to worry about, but you can't get into a situation where laws are just ignored (unless your DHS but that's another matter for another day).
I think this is ridicules, if someone is smoking in a restaurant it is the Health Department?s responsibility to fine the owner. Now as Jumper says if the owner/manger asks the smoker to stop and they refuse the owner/manager can call the CPD and they will arrest the smoker for disorderly conduct.
So I ask our two law experts (enforcement and litigation) the following questions:
If smoking is considered disorderly conduct in a restaurant can anybody smoking anywhere be charged with the same? Or is the disorderly conduct the refusal to stop and if so does the arresting offices have to witness the refusal? If so what happens if the smoker puts out the smoke when the officer enters the establishment? Is disorderly conduct refusing to stop when the owner/manager asks or when the officer asks?
If someone refuses to stop smoking and the health department is called how is the owner/manager?s responsible? Even if CDP is called could the restaurant still be fined?
How does this apply to private clubs such as the American Legion and the VFW?
This is one bad law. It would have been much simpler to let the market decide. I expect that within the next 2 to 3 years most establishments would have gone completely none smoking all on their own.
It?s just like the War of Northern aggression. If the North would have just let the South go, slavery would have died of its own weight. Instead of a war killing more then ? million Americans, completely devastating the South and creating the seeds of hate and racism that last to this day, the Industrial Revolution and the growing discontent in England (the number one importer of cotton) towards the South?s policies would have forced the South to abolish slavery on their own.
So a wise leader might say:
I practice inaction, and the people look after themselves.
I love to be quite, and the people themselves find justice.
I don?t do business, and the people prosper on their own.
Lao Tzu
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 22, 2007 02:38 PM: Message edited by: travelinman ]</font>
I'll defer to my learned law enforcement colleague regarding the actual application of this law. In terms of the theoretical ramifications....disorderly conduct, as a general rule, is the refusal to follow an authorized instruction from law enforcement. There really isn't any private enforcement of such conduct, so I would submit that, yes, the only way you can have true disorderly conduct is to have the officer tell you to put out the heater and you refuse to so do.
Now, when a landowner (or operator) instructs a person to leave, and that person refuses to do so, then you have (theoretically) criminal trespass, which is its own crime irrespective of any smoking law.
My own simple reading of all this is, restaurant owner asks smoker to stop. Smoker laughs at him and lights another one. Restaurant owner calls Jumper. Jumper shows up, politely (but firmly) instructs Smoker to extinguish, and then to leave the premises. If Smoker refuses, then yeah, as odd as it sounds, you have disorderly conduct (or some equivalent offense).
Now, let's not kid ourselves here- if Smoker says F-you, Pig, to Jumper....well, my guess is, Jumper would proceed to have Smoker follow him into the back room, where Jumper would then resume the Q&A session with his nightstick.
Again, don't get me wrong- it is a horribly drafted law (as are many of the public issues) and I can see a whole can of worms being opened.
Now Trav......as for your other comment.....we gotta bring you around to the Big Blue way of thinking someday. It's more than semantics; you call it the "Fall" of Richmond, I call it the "Liberation." [img]wink.gif[/img]
All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth. ? Robert E. Lee
Makes me glad that I dont smoke and dont have to worry about any of the ramifications of this.
Have to think that this may cause more people to at least consider quitting smoking.
As for the police having to get involved, if you light up in a place where you know you are not allowed to smoke you are pretty much asking for some kind of trouble. Anyone who doesnt just snuff it out and refuses to comply is putting the owners/managers or whoever is in charge in a difficult possition. You are in reality forcing them to call the police on you since you knew you werent allowed to smoke and not only did you do so anyway, you continued to do so after you were asked to stop.
Maybe that is going too far, but why would you light up where you know you are not allowed to do so?
Why would you put someone in a spot where they have to make that decision?
Why force them to face fines?
You arent snubbing your nose at the law, you are snubbing your nose at those who have to follow it or face punishmnts of their own. Forced with facing fines of their own that escalate rapidly with each offense, many buisness owners probably wont hesitate to much in making that call.